Iron sharpens iron? You'll have to be the judge. Chad Johnson, an old time friend of Matt and Toby's and founder of and TakeHold Records, joins us with David Pierce, Ben Pierce (, all three bringing a different angle of what it means to be a Christian. Should Toby and Matt be more evangelical at Emery shows? Why did Aaron Gillespie, due to using some choice words, get the boot from speaking at a Steiger event? How vital to the gospel is the message of sanctification? Do we pick and choose what qualifies as sanctification and overlook possibly more important examples?

We totally respect and appreciate those guys for doing what they do and being who they are, and we agree on more things than not, but we can't help but think that the church and christian culture could ease the grip on behavior modification. Yes, of course Jesus changes us. But how so? What does it mean to live differently? Does it mean we stop saying certain words and have to immediately pretend we're better than we are to be part of the "group"? There's more questions than answers, and I don't think we're ever gonna see eye to eye.

However, we can learn from one another. We can challenge one another. And hopefully we can make progress towards more honesty and authenticity within the church, so that people are willing to trust Jesus even though his followers can be real dummies sometimes.

If you listen to the entire episode, you'll get more of the full picture. Listen to the conversation below.